Comments for Toni Badnall's Blog http://tonibadnall.com My Adventures in Ancient Greek Literature Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:39:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ Comment on Weddings and wedding songs in the Greek novel by tonibadnall http://tonibadnall.com/2009/03/06/weddings-and-wedding-songs-in-the-greek-novel/#comment-48 tonibadnall Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:39:42 +0000 http://tonibadnall.com/?p=22#comment-48 Hi Cecilia, Good to hear from you! I'd be really interested to read your article, as in many ways my chapter on the novel has been the hardest to write - the authors seem to be doing some very sophisticated manipulation with the *concept* of hymenaios and the social conventions inherent in the genre. That's all I've done on the novel as yet, but there is my thesis on the epithalamium which I am currently preparing as a book, and I have published some stuff on Plutarch's use of the imagery of wedding songs (which is linked from my 'publications' page on this blog). Feel free to drop me an email (toni.badnall@nottingham.ac.uk) if you want to discuss it further - there are a number of us in the UK and US interested in this topic, so maybe we can get some kind of discourse going... Hi Cecilia,
Good to hear from you! I’d be really interested to read your article, as in many ways my chapter on the novel has been the hardest to write – the authors seem to be doing some very sophisticated manipulation with the *concept* of hymenaios and the social conventions inherent in the genre. That’s all I’ve done on the novel as yet, but there is my thesis on the epithalamium which I am currently preparing as a book, and I have published some stuff on Plutarch’s use of the imagery of wedding songs (which is linked from my ‘publications’ page on this blog). Feel free to drop me an email (toni.badnall@nottingham.ac.uk) if you want to discuss it further – there are a number of us in the UK and US interested in this topic, so maybe we can get some kind of discourse going…

]]> Comment on Weddings and wedding songs in the Greek novel by Cecilia http://tonibadnall.com/2009/03/06/weddings-and-wedding-songs-in-the-greek-novel/#comment-47 Cecilia Sun, 20 Jun 2010 09:53:43 +0000 http://tonibadnall.com/?p=22#comment-47 Hi Toni, my name is Cecilia and I earned my PhD in Classica at the University of Milan. I found by chance you blog on Classical literature and I find it great! I'm particularly interested to your topic on wedding songs in the Greek Novel, because I wrote an article on the same topic! I presented it at the ICAN at Lisbon in 2008 (http://www.ican2008.ul.pt/ICAN2008_en/) and it will be now published on the proceedings... Did you publish anything else on this topic? I'll be glad to discuss it with you... best wishes, cecilia Hi Toni,
my name is Cecilia and I earned my PhD in Classica at the University of Milan. I found by chance you blog on Classical literature and I find it great!
I’m particularly interested to your topic on wedding songs in the Greek Novel, because I wrote an article on the same topic! I presented it at the ICAN at Lisbon in 2008 (http://www.ican2008.ul.pt/ICAN2008_en/) and it will be now published on the proceedings… Did you publish anything else on this topic?
I’ll be glad to discuss it with you…
best wishes,
cecilia

]]> Comment on Greek myth 10: Round Table by Catherine http://tonibadnall.com/2010/03/25/greek-myth-10-round-table/#comment-36 Catherine Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:19:11 +0000 http://tonibadnall.com/?p=124#comment-36 Just thought I would leave a comment to say that I found this 'lecture' very helpful. I agree with the idea of including more theory in the module - I found the social significance of myth very interesting in the wider reading that I did and would have liked there to be more of it in the course, rather than focusing mainly on different myths and why authors chose to use different versions, as it gives an idea of why myth was so important in the Greek world. Just thought I would leave a comment to say that I found this ‘lecture’ very helpful. I agree with the idea of including more theory in the module – I found the social significance of myth very interesting in the wider reading that I did and would have liked there to be more of it in the course, rather than focusing mainly on different myths and why authors chose to use different versions, as it gives an idea of why myth was so important in the Greek world.

]]> Comment on Weddings and wedding songs in the Greek novel by wedding shot glasses http://tonibadnall.com/2009/03/06/weddings-and-wedding-songs-in-the-greek-novel/#comment-30 wedding shot glasses Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:06:28 +0000 http://tonibadnall.com/?p=22#comment-30 Considerably, the post is really the greatest on this valuable topic. I concur with your conclusions and will eagerly look forward to your upcoming updates. Just saying thanks will not just be sufficient, for the wonderful lucidity in your writing. I will immediately grab your rss feed to stay abreast of any updates. Solid work and much success in your business dealings! Considerably, the post is really the greatest on this valuable topic. I concur with your conclusions and will eagerly look forward to your upcoming updates. Just saying thanks will not just be sufficient, for the wonderful lucidity in your writing. I will immediately grab your rss feed to stay abreast of any updates. Solid work and much success in your business dealings!

]]> Comment on Greek myth 3: Heracles by magisteria http://tonibadnall.com/2009/10/20/greek-myth-3-heracles/#comment-24 magisteria Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:52:30 +0000 http://tonibadnall.com/?p=60#comment-24 I think Herodotus may have mentioned something about the dual nature of Heracles. He (or some ancient writer anyway!) suggested that there was a distinction between the God Heracles, and the Hero Heracles and that even back in the 5th Century people were mixing them up. It's interesting that even back then writers were well aware of the paradoxes of Heracles. I think Herodotus may have mentioned something about the dual nature of Heracles. He (or some ancient writer anyway!) suggested that there was a distinction between the God Heracles, and the Hero Heracles and that even back in the 5th Century people were mixing them up. It’s interesting that even back then writers were well aware of the paradoxes of Heracles.

]]> Comment on Greek myth 6: The House of Atreus by tonibadnall http://tonibadnall.com/2009/11/12/greek-myth-6-the-house-of-atreus/#comment-17 tonibadnall Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:01:17 +0000 http://tonibadnall.com/?p=90#comment-17 Thanks for this! I am always interested in things that look at ancient material from a cross-cultural perspective. Thanks for this! I am always interested in things that look at ancient material from a cross-cultural perspective.

]]> Comment on Greek myth 6: The House of Atreus by janraethessaly http://tonibadnall.com/2009/11/12/greek-myth-6-the-house-of-atreus/#comment-16 janraethessaly Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:15:51 +0000 http://tonibadnall.com/?p=90#comment-16 Good day...thanks for the information, i learned a lot as i am having my research, by the way, please visit my story Senshuu No Yuki and please comment on it. It is a story which has many references in the greek myth. Thanks. Visit janraethessaly.wordpress.com Good day…thanks for the information, i learned a lot as i am having my research,
by the way, please visit my story Senshuu No Yuki and please comment on it. It is a
story which has many references in the greek myth. Thanks. Visit janraethessaly.wordpress.com

]]> Comment on My adventures in Greek literature by magisteria http://tonibadnall.com/2009/02/27/my-adventures-in-greek-literature/#comment-7 magisteria Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:05:10 +0000 http://tonibadnall.com/?p=3#comment-7 Thanks for the info, I'll look into the Sappho for sure! Also looking forward to your thoughts on the Greek novels, I have some sitting on my bookshelf waiting to be read! Thanks for the info, I’ll look into the Sappho for sure! Also looking forward to your thoughts on the Greek novels, I have some sitting on my bookshelf waiting to be read!

]]> Comment on My adventures in Greek literature by tonibadnall http://tonibadnall.com/2009/02/27/my-adventures-in-greek-literature/#comment-5 tonibadnall Thu, 05 Mar 2009 21:59:13 +0000 http://tonibadnall.com/?p=3#comment-5 This depends on what you mean by 'a lot' and what you mean by 'songs'. There are a lot of Sappho fragments attributed to her book of epithalamia/otherwise connected with a wedding. Of these, my favourite is fr. 112: 'Happy bridegroom, your marriage has been fulfilled as you prayed, you have the girl you prayed for. [Happy bride?] your form is graceful, your eyes... gentle, and love streams over your fair face. ...Aphrodite has honoured you beyond others' I gave a calligraphy of this one to my cousin for her wedding and she loved it (http://www.tigermoth-art.co.uk/calligraphy_greekmarriage.html). Most are even more fragmentary than this, e.g. fr. 116: 'Farewell, bride; farewell, honoured bridegroom' Any decent translation of Sappho will give you the rest if you want them for a specific nuptial purpose. Other aspects I studied were wedding songs in tragic plays (less representative examples than paradigms of what can go wrong); comic exodoi (Aristophanes' 'Peace' and 'Birds' end with a very folksy and very elevated song respectively); Theocritus (who writes a very literary poem for the marriage of Helen of Troy with Menelaus); Plutarch's 'Advice to the Bride and Groom' (a letter to newlyweds on how to conduct a marriage philosophically); and Menander Rhetor's prescriptions on writing a prose version (the ancient Best Man speech). Regarding weddings in general...no commentaries that I know of. Several scholars (e.g. Oakley &; Sinos) construct a composite picture based on different evidence from different periods, but that's as close as we get. However, love played a huge role - vase paintings show the god Eros at various stages of the ceremony, as well as Aphrodite and other associated deities. Yes, this is an ideal picture, but ideologies have to be based in some fact. Boy-love vs. married love is far too huge a question to treat in detail here, but there was a heterosexual erotic ideal. Aristophanes' 'Lysistrata' works as a plot-line because the men *don't* just turn to their boyfriends when their wives go on sex-strike; Menander (the comedian) presents quite a sentimental, if civic, view of marriage ('happy ever after'); Hellenistic poetry in particular privileges this kind of love; and for the ultimate ancestor of Arthurian courtly love, see the Greek novel: boy meets girl, love at first sight, trials and tribulations, threats to mutual chastity, divine intervention, and marriage and happily ever after. I'm looking at this at the moment, so watch this space for more on this genre. This depends on what you mean by ‘a lot’ and what you mean by ‘songs’.

There are a lot of Sappho fragments attributed to her book of epithalamia/otherwise connected with a wedding. Of these, my favourite is fr. 112:

‘Happy bridegroom, your marriage has been fulfilled as you prayed,
you have the girl you prayed for.
[Happy bride?] your form is graceful, your eyes…
gentle, and love streams over your fair face.
…Aphrodite has honoured you beyond others’

I gave a calligraphy of this one to my cousin for her wedding and she loved it (http://www.tigermoth-art.co.uk/calligraphy_greekmarriage.html). Most are even more fragmentary than this, e.g. fr. 116:

‘Farewell, bride; farewell, honoured bridegroom’

Any decent translation of Sappho will give you the rest if you want them for a specific nuptial purpose. Other aspects I studied were wedding songs in tragic plays (less representative examples than paradigms of what can go wrong); comic exodoi (Aristophanes’ ‘Peace’ and ‘Birds’ end with a very folksy and very elevated song respectively); Theocritus (who writes a very literary poem for the marriage of Helen of Troy with Menelaus); Plutarch’s ‘Advice to the Bride and Groom’ (a letter to newlyweds on how to conduct a marriage philosophically); and Menander Rhetor’s prescriptions on writing a prose version (the ancient Best Man speech).

Regarding weddings in general…no commentaries that I know of. Several scholars (e.g. Oakley &; Sinos) construct a composite picture based on different evidence from different periods, but that’s as close as we get. However, love played a huge role – vase paintings show the god Eros at various stages of the ceremony, as well as Aphrodite and other associated deities. Yes, this is an ideal picture, but ideologies have to be based in some fact.

Boy-love vs. married love is far too huge a question to treat in detail here, but there was a heterosexual erotic ideal. Aristophanes’ ‘Lysistrata’ works as a plot-line because the men *don’t* just turn to their boyfriends when their wives go on sex-strike; Menander (the comedian) presents quite a sentimental, if civic, view of marriage (‘happy ever after’); Hellenistic poetry in particular privileges this kind of love; and for the ultimate ancestor of Arthurian courtly love, see the Greek novel: boy meets girl, love at first sight, trials and tribulations, threats to mutual chastity, divine intervention, and marriage and happily ever after. I’m looking at this at the moment, so watch this space for more on this genre.

]]> Comment on My adventures in Greek literature by magisteria http://tonibadnall.com/2009/02/27/my-adventures-in-greek-literature/#comment-4 magisteria Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:33:39 +0000 http://tonibadnall.com/?p=3#comment-4 (Lay person alert! I know not of what I talk of!) It sounds like there are a lot of wedding songs out there - you mention Sappho, Menander Rhetor and Athanaeus. Would you have a recommendation of one or two poems/songs which would serve as examples of the genre? Also, are there any ancient commentaries on weddings in general? I find it extremely interesting that love is central to the ceremony. Many books/websites imply that the Greeks thought that love could only exist between men and adolescent boys and had little time for romantic love (which some see as not existing before courtly love! An odd position to take!). (Lay person alert! I know not of what I talk of!)

It sounds like there are a lot of wedding songs out there – you mention Sappho, Menander Rhetor and Athanaeus. Would you have a recommendation of one or two poems/songs which would serve as examples of the genre?

Also, are there any ancient commentaries on weddings in general? I find it extremely interesting that love is central to the ceremony. Many books/websites imply that the Greeks thought that love could only exist between men and adolescent boys and had little time for romantic love (which some see as not existing before courtly love! An odd position to take!).

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